In the context of , we force for relations on for over the Chang model making some assumptions on the thorn sequence defined by , as the least ordinal not a surjective image of (i.e. no is surjective) and for limit . These assumptions are motivated from results about in the context of determinacy, and could be reasonable ways of thinking about the Chang model. Explicitly, we assume cardinals on the thorn sequence are strongly regular (meaning regular and functions are bounded whenever is on the thorn sequence) and justified (meaning for some for any on the thorn sequence). This allow us to use Cohen forcing and establish more dependent choice.

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